| by Eddie Hyatt (Tulsa, Oklahoma) |
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| I was driving along listening to a Christian radio station on the car radio. A well-known pastor came on and announced that he would be speaking about God’s plan for marriage. I was shocked to hear him read Genesis 3:16b as his text. This passage, in our English Bible, reads, Your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you (KJV). I could hardly believe what I was hearing. I found myself exclaiming aloud, “No! No! This passage is not about Christian marriage. This passage is describing the distortion of marriage as a result of sin coming into the world.” Here are 5 reasons Genesis 3:16 should never be used as a basis for Christian marriage. Reason #1 Genesis 3:16 Describes Conditions in a Fallen World This verse has its setting in the fall of our first parents and the entry of sin into the world. It is part of a list of the negative ramification’s humanity will suffer because of that fall. It is not a prescription of how things ought to be, but a description of how things will be because of sin coming into the world. This verse is not about redeeming grace and salvation. It is part of a narrative describing the curse coming into the world because of sin. It is a portrayal of human conditions in a fallen world and should never be applied to a redeemed child of God. Reason #2 The Verse Describes a Destructive Turning from God In addition to the historical setting of this verse, the words themselves demonstrate that this verse portrays a sinful and ungodly situation. For example, the word “desire” in this verse is a poor translation of the Hebrew word teshuqua, which means “to turn.” That this is a destructive turning from God is confirmed by the Septuagint (LXX) translators who translated teshuqua with apostrophe. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament Hebrew produced around 275 B.C. by 70 Jewish scholars in Alexandria, Egypt. It became very popular, especially with the Jews of the diaspora, and is the text almost always quoted by New Testament writers. The Analytical Greek Lexicon defines apostrophe as “to turn away,” “to desert,” “to turn a people from allegiance to their sovereign” and to “incite to revolt.” Paul uses this word in II Timothy 1:15 where he says to Timothy, For you know that all those in Asia have turned away from me . . .. This meaning of “turning away” is also borne out in its use in the Old Testament. Although it is used of a spatial turning or moving from one location to another, it is also used of a spiritual turning away from God, i.e., an apostasy. For example, in Numbers 14:43, Moses said to Israel, Because you have turned away from the LORD, the LORD will not be with you. In Deuteronomy 31:18, God said through Moses, And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods. In each of these passages, the Greek translators used the word apostrophe, the same word that is used of the woman in Genesis 3:16. The point is that the “turning away” of the woman predicted in Genesis 3:16 is not a good thing. It is a “turning away” from God. It is a form of apostasy. In addition to the Septuagint, other ancient translations such as the Syriac, the Coptic and the Old Latin all translate teshuqua with a word that means “to turn.” Ancient church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, and Jerome also understood the word to refer to a turning. The point seems to be that, feeling vulnerable in a fallen world, the woman will turn from her God and put her trust in a man. In a fallen world, she will tend to seek security, identity, and meaning in a man rather than in the Almighty who created her. Reason #3 The Word “Rule” is a Description, Not a Prescription The man, in turn, will be a willing participant in this fallen situation. He will take advantage of the situation and “rule” over her. The word “rule” is translated from the Hebrew word mashal, which the LXX translators translated with the Greek word kurieusei. Kureiusei is the future indicative form of kurios, which is a word for Deity in both the Old and New Testaments. The LXX translators used Kurios to translate Yahweh, the personal name of God in the Old Testament. Kurios is translated “Lord” in the New Testament and used as a designation for Jesus Christ—the Lord Jesus Christ. The Analytical Greek Lexicon defines kurieusei as meaning “to be lord over,” “to be possessed of mastery over,” and “to exercise sway over.” This flies in the face over everything Jesus taught about humility and servanthood and obviously describes conditions in a fallen world. The passage seems to be saying that in a fallen world the woman will turn to the man for security and identity and the man will take advantage of her need and play God in her life, lording it over her. The man ruling the woman is not a prescription of how things ought to be, but a description of how things are going to be in a fallen, sinful world. It is not a model for Christian marriage. In America, we have seen this played out in the “MeToo” movement which emerged because of certain men abusing women and lording it over them. In many cases women have been willing participants thinking the man would help them find success and fulfillment in life. The #MeToo movement is a product of the conditions described in Genesis 3:16. Reason #4 Not So in the Beginning Genesis 3:16 is the first sign of hierarchy in the Bible. In the account of creation in Genesis 1 and 2 there is perfect mutuality and partnership between the sexes. Both the original Hebrew and the LXX translation make it clear that Genesis 1:26 is about the creation of the human species, not the creation of the first man. The word “man” in Genesis 1:26 (KJV) is a poor translation of the Hebrew word adam. Adam is gender-inclusive, carrying the meaning of “people” or “humanity.” This meaning was confirmed by the LXX translators who chose anthropoi to translate adam. Anthropoi is also gender-inclusive meaning “people” or “humanity.” The NIV and NRSV thus got it right by translating adam as “mankind” and “humanity.” The NLT also got it right by translating adam as “people.” Confirming that Genesis 1:26-28 is about the creation of the human species, the plural “they” and “them” is used throughout this account. Both man and woman are given the same blessing and the same authority. Genesis 1:26-28 says, Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image and in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the air . . . God blessed them, and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it” (NIV). The word “helpmeet” (KJV) or “helper” (NKJV) in Genesis 2:18 cannot be used as a basis for female subservience, for these are poor translations. The Hebrew word translated “helper” is ezer and it has no connotations of a secondary status as does the English word “helper.” The word ezer is found 21 times in the Old Testament and 17 of those times it is used of God being the helper of humanity. In Psalm 54:4, for example, David says, Behold God is my helper (ezer). The word following ezer is neged, which means “like” or “corresponding to.” In other words, God said He would make an ezer neged, which has all the feel of a mutual partner. Genesis 3:16 is completely out of sync with the equality and mutuality described in Genesis 1-2. That is because it is rooted in conditions related to the fall of humanity and the entrance of sin into the world. Reason #5 Jesus Confirmed Genesis 1 as the Model for Christian Marriage In Matthew 19:3-8 the Pharisees ask Jesus a question about the relationship of husband and wife, particularly about divorce. In response to their inquiry, Jesus pointed them to marriage as it existed before the Fall, i.e., before Genesis 3:16. He replied, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? Jesus thus points them to how it was in the beginning as the model for male-female relationships. The Pharisees respond with their own Scripture. Why then, they ask, Did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce and put her away, referring to Deuteronomy 24:1-4. Jesus replied, Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives but from the beginning it was not so. The model Jesus presents for marriage is not based on Genesis 3:16. How could it be? Genesis 3:16 is a model based on sin and the fall. Jesus came to reverse the cursed effects of the fall. He came to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus, instead, points them to how it was in the beginning before sin entered the world. In the creation story in Genesis 1-2, there is perfect equality and mutuality between the sexes. Both are given the same authority and the same blessing, and neither is given authority or priority over the other. What About Paul? Many Christians have based their view of marriage solely on Paul’s words in Ephesians 5:21-33. This is poor hermeneutics for anything Paul says must be interpreted in the light of what Jesus and Genesis have already said. Too many pastors and teachers begin with Paul and then squeeze Genesis and Jesus into the narrow confines of their skewed understanding of Paul. That being said, in our book, Who’s the Boss?, we have shown that when we look at Paul’s words in the original language and in the cultural context of the day, it is obvious that he is not setting up a marriage hierarchy. Paul, properly interpreted, fits perfectly with Genesis and Jesus. Conclusion I am convinced that marriage based on equal partnership is both the Biblical and common-sense approach. It is the only approach that requires such Christian virtues as service and humility in both partners. It is the only approach that facilitates the synergism and multiplication of power Jesus promised in Matthew 18:19 when any two on earth will agree. “Agree” in this passage is a translation of the Greek word sumphonesosin from which we get “symphony.” A symphony orchestra is made up of different musical instruments with different sounds. But when they all play the same melody in the same key, something beautiful comes forth. Jesus said that if any two of his followers would make a symphony about anything, it would be done. Christian marriage is the place, more than any other, where such a symphony should be occurring. But such a symphony can only occur when there is equality and partnership in the marriage relationship. Making Genesis 3:16 the model for Christian marriage destroys such partnership and synergism. If we want to see our marriages healed and flourishing, we must follow the admonition of Jesus and look at how it was in the beginning for our model for marriage and male/female relationships. ——————————————————————————– Reprinted with permission from: God’s Word to Women http://www.godswordtowomen.org/ ——————————————————————————– |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16 is Not a Model for Christian Marriage Article by Eddie Hyatt Comments by Nathaniel Burson (Big Sandy, Texas) |
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| I read with great amusement Eddie Hyatt’s article on Genesis 3:16. It’s a relief to know that we do not have to obey our elders (1 Peter 5:5); for Adam, though elder than Eve (1 Timothy 2:13), was apparently never in charge of her (Colossians 1:17-18). It is good to know that, although Eve was made from the Man, and FOR the Man, that in no way makes her inferior to him (1 Corinthians 11:7). The fact that Adam was made larger and stronger than Eve by God clearly does not mean that He made them a weaker vessel to ensure that man had the ability to win arguments (1 Peter 3:7); for nature itself does not, apparently, teach us these things (1 Corinthians 11:14). Sarah called Abraham her lord, but fortunately, that sinful practice was nailed to the cross (1 Peter 3:5-6). As that verse plainly says, no holy woman would do such a thing, for under the New Covenant we are equal in every way, and if anything, these days men should call their wives their lord (Isaiah 3:12). So, although Sarah, the symbol of the church of the firstborn in heaven (Galatians 4:22-26), obeyed her husband, it is a relief to know that in our perfect pattern of New Covenant Marriage, that of the Lamb and His Bride, the wife will do no such thing (Revelation 22:3-5). Best of all, this means that when we are married to Christ, He will not be our head, for we will be his equal partner in every way (1 Corinthians 11:3). We will share half of the head with him, and He will be half of the body, equal to His wife in every way – for this is what Paul teaches in Ephesians 5:23, that as the head and the body are equal, so is a man and his wife. And that as Jesus and His bride are equal, so is the New Covenant man and his wife. And who can argue with that? This, in short, is the good news I learned in that article – that no woman, now or at any point in eternity, should ever have to obey her husband. For in no way will He, our Husband, ever be superior to us, nor will we ever need to bow our knees before Him (Philippians 2:22-26), all differences between a man and woman having been caused by the fall and thus erased by His salvation. Which means that as His equal partner, we are now, and always will be, just as good as He is. Maybe better, since anything a Man can do, a woman could do better. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16 is Not a Model for Christian Marriage Article by Eddie Hyatt Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| First, I would like to say, everyone reading what you wrote should pray especially for your wife and also for you. If you don’t have marriage problems now you certainly will have in the future. The article by Eddie Hyatt was spot on and I am very sorry you did not understand it. You can know many scriptures and you can spew them out like they fit together and like they back up what you believe. Thinking you are wise but without understanding you will end up making your wife very depressed. I certainly hope you aren’t demanding that she call you lord and making lists of all the things she must do daily in order to show that she is obeying you. Acting like a “Little Caesar” will not get you a happy wife or a happy marriage. Colossians 1:17-18 No Place in Eddie Hyatt’s article did he say that women were above Christ or Equal to Christ. He was talking about husbands and wives being partners and working together for the good of the marriage. If you want to act like “Little Caesar” it creates an imbalance of power within the marriage, with you lording it over your wife. If both people in a marriage work together for the good of the marriage, then everyone works harder to make it work. 1 Peter 3:5-6 & 1 Peter 3:7 To let your wife be a mutual partner within the marriage relationship does not mean she does not obey you. Most women believe it or not, are easy going and willing to go along with what a husband says as long as it does not go against God’s Law. If you want to take a trip and you want to go to Florida and she wants to go to Alaska, most couples will compromise by going to Florida one year and Alaska the next if the money is there to do it. If not, the husband is usually the one to decide and the wife is usually okay with it. Most every Sunday we go out to eat. We take turns choosing where we want to eat and there is nothing wrong with that. Our house is bigger than I can handle, so Darwin cleans the upstairs and I clean the downstairs. Darwin takes care of the dishwasher and I take care of the laundry. When things are agreed on it is a mutual agreement, and no one is lording anything over the other person. 1 Peter 5:5 In verse 3 it says, “Neither as being lords over God’s heritage but being ensamples to the flock.” Whether you consider yourself as a real elder or you are older than your wife, it doesn’t matter. If your wife is a part of God’s Church, you are not to lord it over her. Your responsibility to God is to be a good example to your wife. Then take a look at verse 5 where it says, “… be subject one to another…” which is just another way of saying obey but it is a mutual obedience. 1 Timothy 2:13 No one disagrees with you that Adam was formed first and then Eve, however this does not give you a license to lord it over anyone. Eve was in no way a lesser person than was Adam. 1 Corinthians 11:3, 7 & 14 These are the scriptures in regard to head coverings. God is first, then Christ, Man and Woman. There is another scripture that says God and Christ are one. And there is this one: Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. This last verse isn’t just talking about sex, it is talking about the man and his wife becoming one as in mind, being on the same page, going for the same goal. A mutual and equal relationship. Isaiah 3:12 I believe one of your biggest problems here is that you can’t distinguish between things which occur because of sin and things that happen when you have God’s Holy Spirit. In Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. If your wife lets you lead her with your current attitude towards women she will err. Look in the world around you, the sin filled world is where children are the oppressors (for example what is currently coming out of universities) and women will rule over them (look in your current government, Pelosi and we all know Biden isn’t running the show so it must be Harris). This stuff is not to happen among God’s Spirit filled people. None of us are to be oppressors or rulers over each other. Galatians 4:22-26 & Revelation 22:3-5 You are mixing one thing with another here. Obeying God’s law is way different than a wife obeying everything that proceeds from a husband’s mouth. You aren’t God Nathaniel, so your wife should only obey you as you obey God. With the attitude you have displayed against women in what you wrote, I would clearly be surprised if you are not abusing your wife in other ways than to demand she call you lord and obey your every word. Ephesians 5:23 Christ has given us all free moral agency. Christ does not tell us or make any of us do anything. We keep God’s law because we want to and not because he is standing over us with a club. Your headship over a woman is the same as Christ’s headship over the Church. Your wife will obey you as you are an example of keeping God’s law. However, that obedience is to each other as this verse states: Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Philippians 2:22-26 You are very good at twisting scripture and with that you have done a great job. There is a very big difference between a man who is converted and a man who is not. A man who is converted would understand what scripture says about marriage. I was married to an unconverted man before I came into God’s Church and he had the same attitude about women that you have. So let me tell you a true story. My mother and dad hardly ever went to church, so they were not filled with God’s Holy Spirit. One night my dad came home from work and my mother put supper in front of him. She had put everything on his plate for him. My dad took that plate of food, and he threw it across the kitchen, and it hit the wall. He then told my mother to clean it up and make him some supper. I watched my mother clean that mess up and make a second supper. She sat it in front of my dad once more and again my dad took that whole plate of food and threw it across the kitchen. He told my mother to clean it up and get yet another plate of supper for him. My mother was a really good cook and there was nothing wrong with any of the three different meals she made for my dad that night, but like you Nathaniel he thought he would play “Little Caesar” and prove his role of ruling over my mother. My dad did eat the third meal she made that night. And I told myself no man would ever do that to me. My chance came when I married my own “Little Caesar” and one night at supper we are eating and for no reason, he threw the catsup bottle full blast at the wall and told me to clean it up. I said “No” “You threw it, now you clean it up.” No one ever cleaned that catsup off the wall as long as I lived there, and I was severely beaten that night for my disobedience. “There is nothing Godly about any man who believes he can rule over his wife in that manner. All “Little Caesars” have the same attitude as you do about women. It took me four years to get away from my ex-husband simply because they keep coming after you because they believe they own you. I sincerely hope you are not treating your own wife as your written response indicates, but if you are I hope someone in the church takes you under their wing and tries to show you how God wants you to treat your wife and if you are hitting her, she needs to leave you immediately because it will only get worse. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16is Not a Model for Christian Marriage Article by Eddie Hyatt Comments by Alfio La Spina (Victoria British Columbia) |
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| Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Scripture gives instructions to the converted. The carnal mind will not and cannot follow instructions given in scripture. In the verse below we see that converted women are not under the curse. 1 Timothy 2:14-15 (ESV) 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. The scriptures below are clear how husbands and wives are to be with each other. Ephesians 5:22-33 (ESV) Wives and Husbands 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Verse 33 says it all, about how husbands and wives are to be with each other. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16is Not a Model for Christian Marriage Article by Eddie Hyatt Comments by Crystal Burson (Big Sandy, Texas) and Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| Crystal Burson writes: Laura, we’ve never met or spoken, but since you decided to launch a hateful attack against my husband in my defense, it seemed only right that I be the one to respond to you, to set the record straight. Laura Lee writes: There was no hateful attack launched against Nathaniel. Nathaniel sent an “Iron Sharpening Iron” response to an article by Eddie Hyatt titled “5 Reasons Genesis 3:16 is Not a Model for Christian Marriage”. What Nathaniel wrote did nothing but denigrate women, not just me, but all women and that includes you. I suggest that you read the article Eddie Hyatt wrote and then read your husbands response to it. Because of Nathaniel’s response it is pretty clear what he thinks about women and when men denigrate women like Nathaniel did there is always some form of abuse going on. If there is no abuse going on, then Nathaniel would have defended himself instead of sending you. Crystal Burson writes: The picture you have of my life couldn’t be farther from the truth. And as anyone who actually read Nathaniel’s comments can see, nothing he said supported abuse; his only “crime” was quoting words of God that show the man is the head of the house, which everyone with a Bible knows is true. Laura Lee writes: Crystal I was you once defending a husband who beat me for 4 years. He did not deserve my defense of him and neither does Nathaniel. If Nathaniel wants to defend his denigration of women, then he should do so and not you. Every abusive husband, boyfriend and partner quotes all the scriptures about what the woman is to do but he always leaves out the part the man has. Read what your husband wrote about women, it was disturbing to say the least. Crystal Burson writes: Your venomous reaction would be impossible to explain were it not for the fact that you told us where you got your beliefs from. And it wasn’t the Bible; it was the fears of a little girl. You said it yourself, that you decided then never to let a man rule over you. Laura Lee writes: I was 16 almost 17 years old when I saw my dad throw his food across the room and watched two times that night while my mother was on her hands and knees cleaning that mess up. There is nothing Godly about any man who denigrates any women in that manner. I am the oldest of seven kids and my job was to keep the rest of the kids from getting caught in the middle of my dad’s rath. My dad was a strong man, and he could have hurt each and every one of us if we had tried to stop him and we all knew from past experience that if one of us escaped the house to go next door for help, no one would help. We were on our own. No, I said then and there that I would never let any man do that to me. Meaning I would not let any man throw food at the wall and make me clean it up. This particular kind of rulership where a man can throw food at the wall and make his wife clean it up is abuse and if this is the kind of rulership Nathaniel has over you, you better run before you have children with him. It is harder to get out when you have children. Genesis 3:16 is talking about the curse that was given because of sin. All of these things in this verse are the penalty for sin. There is no command here for a man to rule over his wife. If Nathaniel has God’s Holy Spirit, he should not be ruling over you or anyone else in a denigrating manner. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Crystal Burson writes: You hadn’t read the Bible then, but you decided right then what the Bible was going to say. That’s why these scriptures didn’t change your mind, because it was made up by a scared little girl long ago, and now you’re just defending her fear of authority at any cost. Laura Lee writes: As a kid, I never had a lot of money, so it took a long time to save it up to buy anything. How many third graders do you know that would save the little money they did get until they had enough to buy a Bible, so try again on this one. Also, I would have cleaned the catsup off the wall if I had been afraid of authority from an abuser. So, try again. The point was that I would rather take the beating than to let an abuser think he could keep on doing stuff just to denigrate me. Crystal Burson writes: In your defense, the Church offers embarrassingly lame examples of men to choose from, so I can see why you’ve concluded that you are the equal of men; because you are their equal, if not better than most. But only because today’s world has only the bottom of the barrel for comparison. Laura Lee writes: Perhaps you and Nathaniel deserve each other, because now here you are denigrating men just as he denigrates women. The biggest problem with both you and Nathaniel is that you don’t read very well and what you do read you don’t understand. Nathaniel had no idea what Eddie Hyatt’s article was even talking about. To sum it up Eddie Hyatt was saying that you can’t use Genesis 3:16 for how to conduct a Christian marriage because Genesis 3:16 is a curse for unconverted people. It is a statement as to what is going to happen to women because of sin. A converted person is not going to be treating their wife or their marriage in that manner that is not what God intended for marriage in the beginning. There are many scriptures throughout the Bible showing how God’s people are to treat each other and it is not for one person to lord it over another person. Equality in marriage means a lot of things. For example, Darwin started fixing our patio last year and he is finishing it up now. He didn’t just go to the store and pick out the brick without talking to me first, because I have to like it too or it won’t work between us. He showed me the brick he liked, and I liked it to. This year I suggested a brick wall between the patio and the cat pen, and he liked the idea so now we are getting the brick wall also. Mutual understanding is what keeps marriages from falling apart. Depending on what Nathaniel is asking of you in his rulership over you, your marriage won’t last very long if he doesn’t include your likes and dislikes in his decision making. Equality in marriage is nothing more than two people working together for the good of each other and the marriage. If someone is standing over you telling you what you like and don’t like and telling you what to do all the time chances of that marriage being happy are nil to none even if it lasts for decades. Crystal Burson writes: Authority figures have let you, and many other women (and men), down. But there are a few men today, like Abraham, who use their authority to make their wives and children more like God (Genesis 18:19). A rebellious woman might call such men “little Caesars”, but I am honored to say one is my lord (verse 12), like all holy women in history have done, according to Peter. Laura Lee writes: There is nothing wrong with a man or a woman teaching others the ways of God. Abraham was not lording it over his wives and children and if you can prove he was, book, chapter, and verse, please. Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Lord or My Lord was used a lot in ancient times, it is a title of respect as is calling someone Mr., Mrs., Mr. President or even just addressing a person by name. Being in subjection to someone is the same as obedience to someone. Subjection or obedience to each other in marriage puts everyone on equal footing to make the marriage work. Did you ever watch two dogs submit to each other? One of our dogs died in 2003. She was a rather large cocker spaniel named Spice. We thought our other cocker spaniel who was much smaller needed a companion, so we bought Jadie who was part border collie and red healer. Jadie looked like a red healer and was at least 2.5 times taller than our cocker spaniel Sugar was. Jadie always showed submission to Sugar even though she was bigger than Sugar. Jadie knew that Sugar was here first, and she would bow down to her, or curtsy. Jadie was not being ruled over by Sugar nor was Jadie ruling over Sugar. Jadie was just showing respect for the older dog and that she wanted to get along with her. This is how marriage works, it is a mutual relationship and that is all Peter is talking about. He wants all women to respect their husbands in a Godly manner. Crystal Burson writes: And like Sarah, I don’t call him “lord”, he simply is my lord – another word for “head”. Because like all wives, I made a vow “to love, honor, and obey” my husband and “follow him whithersoever he goeth”, in exactly the same way as he follows his Lord, Jesus; in exactly the same way as Christ follows His own Lord, the Father (Psalms 110:1). Laura Lee writes: No one disagreed with Nathaniel, or you that the order of things is God, Jesus, Man, Woman. It is in the Bible, however there is a difference between obeying a Godly man and one who is not Godly. When Nathaniel wants to send stuff over here for print that denigrates women as he did, I will not keep my mouth shut. He did the wrong thing, perhaps he should apologize to women everywhere for denigrating them all. Crystal Burson writes: And even that scared little girl knows… the head and the body are not equal, even though they are one flesh, and share many things in common. And she knows that in everybody the head has the last word. That’s why God and Christ are not equal, Christ and the church are not equal, and my husband and I are not equal. Laura Lee writes: Please read my response to your husband, I said all of that in my response to Nathaniel. I even gave an example of when he wants to go to one place and she to another place that generally a couple will compromise and go to one place one year and the other the next if there is the money to do so. If the money is not there for both places, then it is the husband who decides. That would apply to anything. You need to read things before you respond. Also, there is no scared little girl here or even back where I grew up. I read my Bible and I knew the difference between right and wrong even back then. It is not right for a woman to have to clean up the floor and the wall because “Little Caesar” threw his food at it to prove he was the ruler, and she needs to obey. It is more noble to take the beating to show that what was done was not right. The term “Little Caesar” was used by me to show what unconverted men do to their wives that is not right. When Nathaniel sends items for print that denigrate women, he is in all regards acting as an unconverted man. There are many other ways he could have gotten his point across without denigrating others. Nathaniel is a very arrogant person and how do I know that? Because he thinks he is far above everyone else and believes he knows everything so there by you can’t point anything out to him. He has an unwillingness to learn from others. Nathaniel and I used to email a lot during the years of the last newsletter 2001 to 2009 and I told him he was very arrogant then and it has gotten worse over time. His arrogance is not just my opinion my husband sees it also and he is a man. Crystal Burson writes: And if you are equal to your husband, then it’s because he’s not your husband at all; he’s your “life partner”. Laura Lee writes: I sincerely do hope that my husband is my “life partner”, after all that is the point of marriage among other things. In April of 2021 we were married for 22 years. Eddie Hyatt and his wife have been married for 44 years. I sincerely hope you and Nathaniel last that long, but if he is abusing you, you really need to get out before you find yourself with lifetime injuries as I have from being beaten for 4 years. There are many forms of abuse and that you are writing to me instead of Nathaniel shows me that you will defend him even when he is wrong and that in and of itself is the wrong thing to do. As far as me being rebellious because I don’t obey my husbands every command as you seem to believe I should from what you have written here, let me tell you two more true stories. My “Little Caesar” sent me into a convenience store to steal something. He didn’t care what I took, but I was to do it to prove my loyalty to him. Stealing is wrong so I had no idea what to do. I went into the store alone and sat down at one of those tables they have in their coffee/food area. As I sat there, I noticed a cigarette lighter that someone had left. So, I took the cigarette lighter and gave it to him as he waited for me outside. In this case it was better to do it this way because I was in a completely different state far from home and if he had left me there, I would have had no place to go and no money to call anyone with. (So even though I did not steal, I led my husband at the time to believe I had.) While living in Arizona, we ran out of my money for he had no money. He was not one to work much. He told me that if I wanted to eat, I needed to go and sell my body for money. My response to him was, word for word, “I would rather starve to death.” Do you yet understand the problem with blindly obeying anyone including your own husband? If you still don’t understand perhaps, I can tell you of the many women who have been abused by these “Little Caesars” and how some are dead now and others like myself are injured for life. Physical abuse can start with just a small shove and escalate from there. An arrogant man does not see that he is hurting anyone because you are not a person to him, you are an object, a possession for him to use in whatever way he wants. Nathaniel is so arrogant that he saw nothing wrong with what he was submitting for print. I sincerely hope you are not being abused in anyway but just the fact that he has you believing that he is commanded by God to rule over you says otherwise to me. And just the fact that you believe it is your duty to be ruled over shows me that you are not reading your Bible and if you are you do not understand what it says. Mental abuse is just as bad if not worse than physical abuse. If either of these are happening to you in your marriage you need to walk away. God does not tell men to lord it over their wives and He does not tell women to stay in these kinds of situations. I am well aware that “The Worldwide Church of God” taught men and women that they should stay in these ungodly abusive situations, and I am sorry they taught you that kind of garbage. We will not teach it here. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16 is Not a Model for Christian Marriage Article by Eddie Hyatt Comments by Name Withheld |
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| Just went through the Crystal Burson response and your rebuttal. Just a private word to you that you handled that very well! That was one you spent a little time on this week. I can kind of relate to getting frustrated with those who, for some reason, just cannot see the overview. I see how we are in the very last days, and I send out a number of emails which show what is happening…so a proper response can be taken by those who receive them (Hosea 4:6 my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge). When someone just does not ‘get it’, I think and feel, ‘what else can I do?!’. So again, Laura and Darwin, hang in there, and keep serving! |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16 is Not a Model for Christian Marriage Article by Eddie Hyatt Comments by Nathaniel Burson (Big Sandy, Texas) and Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| Nathaniel writes: You said, “No one disagreed with Nathaniel, or you that the order of things is God, Jesus, Man, Woman.” Then what are we arguing about? Because that’s all I said. In the parable of the bricks or of the vacations, my wife and I would do similarly. So, what are we really arguing about here? Laura writes: We are talking about the first email you sent here in which you denigrated all women. Nathaniel writes: The Bible teaches that men are the heads of their houses, with the last word on decisions – provided he doesn’t command her to sin. Since you agree (“…then it is the husband who decides. That would apply to anything”) … again, what are we arguing about? Laura writes: We are talking about the first email you sent here in which you denigrated all women. Nathaniel writes: Because you say these things, yet you simultaneously believe the opposite – that “there is perfect equality and mutuality between the sexes”. But it is not possible to believe that, and also believe “as the church is subject to Christ, let wives be subject to their husbands in everything” (Ephesians 5:24). Laura writes: Perhaps you should read the entire set of scripture here: Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. Looks like an equal relationship to me and not one where a husband is ruling over his wife. Nathaniel writes: These two views cannot fit together, but you are trying very hard to believe both. That’s why you said “obey, but it is a mutual obedience”. So, you obey your husband… but not really, because you really obey each other; you submit to one another, and yet somehow, he is also your head. Laura writes: From Web Page: http://www.relevantbibleteaching.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=140034636&sec_id=140001239 The immediate conclusion many draw when they hear submission or subjection in relation to marriage is that it implies lesser humanity, diminished dignity, and reduced equality. But since all of those things regarding women are unbiblical, we can flee from any teaching that infers this kind of belief or behavior. …a husband who enjoys a relationship of superiority and dominion over his wife is operating not in Christ’s paradigm but in the way of fallen, cursed mankind, a way pleasing to the devil (Genesis 3:16). The wife is not the husband’s doormat, … Despite the authority hierarchy within the Godhead, there was still unity, equality, oneness, and shared responsibility. It had nothing to do with Jesus being bossed around, but it had everything to do with He and His Father being on the same page, accomplishing the same goals, united in spirit, and perfected in love. All people should perhaps read this web page for a better understanding of what headship, equality, love etc. are and how they fit together. Nathaniel writes: Which is why you said, “Eve was in no way a lesser person than was Adam”. But Eve was in every way less than Adam (1 Timothy 2:13). She was created second; she was made for him; she was made out of him. She sinned before he did and helped him sin. Laura writes: Again, why do you continue to quote only the scriptures you like and that fit your narrative? 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Eve was deceived, she did not willingly and knowingly sin. Adam was not deceived, he knowingly and willingly sinned. Not at all sure how you can twist this into making Eve lesser than Adam. They both sinned but Adam knew it was sin and Eve did not. And verse 15 here shows that women with God’s Holy Spirit in them are not under the curse of Genesis 3:16. Nathaniel writes: By literally every metric, she was inferior to him. Just as all of us, individually and collectively, are inferior to Christ. Again… isn’t that what we both believe? Christ is not first among equals in the church. Christ is the head of the church, and we both believe that; so why are we arguing about this? Laura writes: What are these metrics that make women a lesser being than you are? Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. I don’t know, but this looks like equal statis to me. God even made both men and women in the image of God himself, so it does not look at all like God thought women were lesser human beings than men are. Nathaniel writes: Because again, you also say the opposite: “Christ does not tell us or make any of us do anything”. But that’s simply not true; you don’t even believe that’s true; Christ tells us, nay, commands us to do a great many things and I know you believe that (John 15:9-10, Philippians 2:9-11 for instance). Laura writes: This is basic Bible 101. We all have free moral agency because God created us that way. God and Christ do not stand over any of us with a club and tell us what to do. God chooses us and calls us. We read our Bibles and we choose whether to do what God says we should do, or we simply choose not to do it. Nathaniel writes: You know these verses, yet you struggle to reconcile them with Adam and Eve’s perfectly harmonious marriage in Eden; but here’s the thing… they weren’t married in Eden. Adam did not “know” his wife until Genesis 4:1. Therefore, they had not been “one flesh”, in any sense! So how could they be considered married? Laura writes: Why would God create Eve if she was not to be Adam’s partner for life and to have children with him? What is your definition of marriage? Today we have to go buy a license to get married and say vows before a minister or justice of the peace. In the bible they just had sex and they were now man and wife. Adam and Eve were both naked in the Garden before they sinned. God meant for them to be husband and wife or he would not have created a partner suitable to Adam. Nathaniel writes: Adam himself said that when a man was married “he would leave his father and mother”. Did Adam not, at that time, still LIVE with his Father? Thus, Genesis 3:16 was their marriage ceremony – when they left their Father’s house, and cleaved to one another. Laura writes: I think you have the wrong marriage ceremony. It was here in Genesis 1:28 in the Garden of Eden. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 3:16 is a curse because they sinned. I see no marriage ceremony in this set of scriptures as the man Adam also was given his own set of curses. Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Read this stuff in context. If this is a marriage ceremony as you say, all marriages would end in divorce. Not only did Eve get a curse or two, but Adam got his own set of curses and don’t leave out the serpent because God also cursed him for what he did. Nathaniel writes: Until then, as an unmarried man and a woman, they were each free to choose their own path as they saw fit (1 Corinthians 7:32-34). But when they became husband and wife, they were bound by God to the exact same rules by which the Lamb and the Bride will be bound in marriage; He to give his life for her, and she to obey His commandments (John 14:15-21). Laura writes: So, if push comes to shove, are you truly willing to give up your life to save the life of your own wife? Because that is how much you as a husband are supposed to love your wife. If you believe she is inferior to you then why would you have to give up your life for something that is so flawed that you must rule over her? Nathaniel writes: Isn’t that what we both believe? As you said yourself “it is the husband who decides”. This doesn’t mean he shouldn’t care about your opinion, your needs, and have many obligations of his own to you; it just means you agree that he has the right to win every argument that doesn’t directly conflict with the commands of your mutual Father. Laura writes: So, is this what it boils down to, is that you must win every argument with your wife? Do you have a lot of these arguments with your wife? If you do, I can see why that would happen. Neither you nor your wife understand the scriptures relating to marriage. No one ever wins an argument because there is always one injured party and one party who is licking their chops and patting himself on the back because he won the argument. Again, I feel sorry for your wife that she even goes along with your version of marriage. Sometimes she may well be very right in an argument, but because you as “Little Caesar” have declared yourself as winner of all arguments you are laying the groundwork for your wife to resent you and you certainly will never respect her or how she feels. Nathaniel writes: You wanted a perfect pattern of New Covenant marriage; it’s not found in Eden, among unmarried siblings; but in the New Jerusalem, between Jesus and His Bride. And since we obey Him exactly as a New Covenant wife obeys her New Covenant husband… why are we still talking about this? (Ephesians 5:24). Laura writes: “Why are we still talking about this?” The short answer is because you keep sending me emails hoping to win your argument that “all women are inferior to men, and it is the man’s job to denigrate them every chance he gets.” You have not even mentioned your original email where you denigrated all women, and I don’t think you ever will because you see nothing wrong with having done that. And marriage in the eyes of God is the same throughout the entire bible. There is no New Covenant marriage that gives you license to mistreat your wife in anyway. Marriage is the same from Genesis to Revelation. Nathaniel writes: Do you really want to defend the position that Jesus and His Bride are equal partners in all things? Can you argue with a straight face that Jesus and His Bride submit themselves one to another? That we obey Him, but it’s a mutual obedience? No, because He is not first among, we, His equals, and you know that. Therefore, neither is any New Covenant husband. Laura writes: So do you now feel better after taking my every word and twisting it into pretzels as you do also with scripture. You have a narrative doctrine which you plan to hang onto no matter what the cost to you or your wife. To sum it up, you believe all women are inferior to men, you believe you are to rule over your wife, and you believe you get to win all arguments. What a lonely man you will be with that attitude. To sum it up, no, I and you do not believe the same things in regard to marriage. I thank God that there is a public record of what I said and what you and your wife said because people can now look at that and perhaps give advice or corrections where they are needed. And I sincerely hope that people do have something to say in regard to all of this. Denigrating women is wrong and hopefully you will understand that someday. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16 is Not a Model for Christian Marriage Article by Eddie Hyatt Comments by Ray Daly (Lincoln, North Dakota) and Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| Ray writes: In Counselors for Research, there is a question regarding whether “men are supposed to rule over women”. (para) I’ve responded to a few of said “Research” questions, and none have been specifically addressed by those that put forth the question, I thought I’d answer one of them, via the main source of your work. Laura writes: Sorry for the confusion. Under “Counselors for Research” the question is: #0003 – Should a Husband Rule Over His Wife? (Genesis 3:16). The question was posted by me based on the article 5 Reasons Genesis 3:16 is Not a Model for Christian Marriage by Eddie Hyatt. Specifically addressing Genesis 3:16. Some questions listed under “Counselors for Research” were posted there by us and some by others. It doesn’t really matter who askes the question. More to the point what are the responses used for? This is a very fast-moving newsletter with basically only two of us running the show. We just do not have time to do all the research that is needed. And besides I am sure most people don’t want us to be the disseminators of all truth. That is not how things should work. Everyone should participate in this newsletter in some capacity. When only one or two people are talking and no one else, it can derail the truth real fast. If many people give their perspective based on scripture or some other proof, then we can probably look at that and find a middle ground that most everyone can agree on. And if not, we will wait for new evidence to make it clear. With that said, anyone can answer the questions either by writing an” Iron Sharpening Iron” piece or in the form of an article. What ever you write, we will hook the “Iron Sharpening Iron” ones to the article that best fits it, either current or future. And any that are articles will go through the approval process as all articles do. We do print most articles now days even the ones we disagree with as we feel they should be discussed and not hidden. Ray writes: There is one major point that should be put forth. Men have no control of other “men’s women”. Unless it is a “law breaking offense”. However, note what follows, as it pertains to what Scripture tells us. if we accept Scripture as our source of Truth and knowledge. Please note in the following Scripture, that it is referring to when the church is meeting together. And there are no Scriptures commanding believers to having to assemble on the Sabbath. Though Paul says it is a good thing to do if it is feasible. Laura writes: We are commanded to assemble on the Saturday Sabbaths and the High Holy Days. See the entire chapter of Leviticus 23. In the following verse and many others, it is clear that it is commanded in the law of God: “Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.” Convocation means meeting. Christ’s example in the New Testament was to go to the Temple and teach on Sabbaths and Holy Days. Ray writes: 1 Tim. 2:11. “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. V.12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. V.13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. V.14. Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” Again, this seems to be when the church assembled. Which is supported by 1 Cor. 14:35. By let her ask her husband at home”. IOW’s, if she had questions during “services”, then she was to hold her peace, and let her husband know what she was wondering about. And it would be his duty to check it out for her. And every bit as much as a man, she could be right. Still, it has to do with her standing when it comes to “assembling”. But there is more. You and all women can judge for yourselves. Laura writes: The church has always assembled on the Sabbath and High Holy Days, they never stopped. Some of this has already been covered under the same article this will be posted under. As far as 1 Tim. 2:11, Dianne D. McDonnell covered this in her article titled: Paul and Women Teachers: Understanding 1 Timothy, Chapters 1 & 2, found in Issue #24 of this same newsletter. Ray writes: 1 Pet. 3:1. “Likewise, you wives. Be in subjection to your own husbands. That if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives.” Obviously referring to believing wives, whose husbands do not believe. As long as the subjection is not against God’s will. At the same time, would it be any different if their husbands are like believers. Does it mean that a wife “does not” have to be in subjection to likeminded husbands? V.5. “…In old times also, who trusted in God [think Esther for example], adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands.” V.6. Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.” Much as saying yes sir, or similar. A woman does not have to submit to any man, husband, boss, or other, if it would be against God’s will in Scripture. Note a Scripture that is so very True today. I won’t look up the exact verse. But it says, speaking of Israel in general. “As for my people (all men and women), children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. They that lead you cause you to err”. Children are obvious. Women ruling is obvious. Thus, is it not the duty of believers to teach such? Laura writes: Again, much of this has been covered in the comments to the above article. However please also read: Junia, a Woman Apostle by Dianne D. McDonnell found in Issue #27 and A Church Without Women by Dianne D. McDonnell found in Issue #19. And please note that Deborah was a Judge and men listened to and followed what she told them to do. |
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